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Getting married and worried about future disputes
Posted by ayumi (97 days ago)
I am a HK permanent resident and will get married in six months. My fiance is a French national. Now, i have never discussed prenuptial agreements with him, because i don't know if i should get one or not.
A friend of mine (not a lawyer) scared the hell out of me by saying that in case we divorce, he will get half of my property and can even demand financial support.
I have started to worry, because i own a flat in HK and one in Europe, while my fiance has no properties. Also, i earn more than he does.
What does the law say with regards to properties acquired before marriage?
I certainly wouldn't want him to take me to the cleaners in case of divorce.
Any informed advice is welcome :-)
(I am based in Hong Kong)
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Posted by naif02138 (97 days ago)
Ayumi,
I think you should really spend an hour or two talking to a qualified HK solicitor regarding your rights in the event of a divorce. The cost of the solicitor will be worth it in terms of your peace of mind! Rules regarding separation of property vary greatly by jurisdiction (some are as your friend says, but most are probably equal split of property earned DURING marriage, with each keeping what that person brought into the marriage, though after a certain period of time in the marriage, the rules may change).
What's wrong with having a pre-nup? Instead of thinking of it negatively, perhaps think of it as insurance -- you don't want to use it, but in the event you divorce for whatever reason, you will be able to minimize the pain and resolve it quickly. I know of friends who have been in talks/court for over a year because they can't agree on a settlement. Good luck.
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by FKKC (96 days ago)
I would definitely protect myself if I were you.
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by evildeeds (96 days ago)
There are 2 problems with pre-nups. The first is pretty much saying you will get divorced and need to protect your self WHEN it happens (not if). The second is that if a divorce goes to the court the pre-nup here is about as much use as a chocolate teapot. A court can overrule any pre-marriage agreement in HK.
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by ayumi (96 days ago)
Is it true? If pre-nups are useless in court, why do people spend money to draft them in front of a lawyer?
I would like to hear more about this. It sounds very scary.
I am in my mid-40s and so is my future husband, certainly it wouldn't be fair if half of my properties went to him in case of divorce.
I am trying to stay positive, but given the stats (1 out of 3 marriages ending in divorce) i wonder what to do to protect myself.
He is not a gold digger, but better safe than sorry.
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by ozziejohn (96 days ago)
Pre nups are not enforceable in HK. I am an Australian lawyer.
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by ayumi (96 days ago)
Thanks a lot for the clarification.
So, in case of divorce, would my husband be able to claim half of the assets i acquired before marriage?
If this is the case, i will cancel my wedding. The risk is just not worth taking.
In many European countries, only assets acquired AFTER marriage are divided in case of divorce.
Which i think it's fair...but what i earned before meeting my future husband shouldn't become his.
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by ayumi (96 days ago)
I feel glad i didn't marry my ex-bf. After we split up he stole a Bose hi-fi i had bought for the flat where we shared. If that skunk had been my husband he would have taken the flat as well :-)
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by ayumi (96 days ago)
The edit button doesn't work.
Here is the edited text.
I feel glad i didn't marry my ex-bf. After we split up he stole a Bose hi-fi i had bought for the flat we shared (mine). If that skunk had been my husband he would have taken the flat as well :-)
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by zonked (96 days ago)
wow, ayumi, knowing your views the guy should cancel the wedding!!
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by jon_99 (96 days ago)
Hi Ayumi,
I am interested in your view - are you really gng to cancel your wedding bc of fear of what happens if you divorce?
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by gill2008 (96 days ago)
Hi Ayumi,
Now my question to you or whoever thinks like you is, why do you marry a person? You marry coz you love and trust that person. If the reason behind your marriage is either to think what you'll get IF you have a divorce or to think what you can protect IF you end up divorcing, I feel this marriage is worth nothing at all. Instead of thinking how you are going to end up, its better to think what you can do to keep it forever. Every marriage has disputes and they are part of your life. There is no relationship on earth where there is no dispute, no tears, no pain, but what you have to think is you live with it and try to change it to the better.
My advice to you is, if you are so worried about what you own and what you may lose just coz you marry, don't marry at all. I am being honest coz someday if you actually end up fighting over some rights, your mind will automatically jump to the question that you are askng ppl today. Imagine if your fiance wants to have pre-nups with you, how would you feel? Would you even trust that person anymore? I wouldn't!!
Never underestimate a person's worth, with a blink of an eye, you may be left with nothing and he may own the whole empire....its only time.
Think twice.
Sorry if there is anything that have hurted anyone of you here...
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by ilovecc (96 days ago)
Wow...within it seems 24 hours, you've come on a public forum to get pre-maritial advice and have then decided to dump your bf (whom you've probably known for more than 24 hours) based on the advice of some random strangers, all because you wanted to ensure your property was secure. Did you ever think about transferring your properties to your mum's name or a close trusted relative or set up a shell company to own those properties or something to that effect?
I can't imagine that you were on the verge of getting married and within 1 day based on the advise given here you've called it off.
Something is amiss.....
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by ayumi (96 days ago)
well,
getting married is a very important decision. When my bf popped the question i immediately said yes, because i love him. Certainly i didn't think about divorce.
I have known him for 2 years and i do trust him. The reason why i am reconsidering is not just based on what people on this forum are telling me now. It's based on the fact that HK marriage law is different from what i expected. In my country what is yours before marriage stays yours in case of divorce. Not in HK. If i knew, probably i wouldn't have said yes, because i am a realist, i don't live in a fairytale. Like it or not, some marriages do end. Do i want to spend the rest of my life regretting this decision in case my partner and i for whatever reason decide to get divorced?
The fact that pre-nups are not valid in HK, is something i didn't know, and scares me. You take out insurance when you drive. You don't expect to crash, but accidents happen.
So, if there is no insurance, i'd rather not get married, and just keep the relationship as it is. Too adults sharing their lives, without future financial pressures.
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by RECUTIE (96 days ago)
Hi Ayumi, sorry to ask this, is your fiance about 172cm, working as a foot district manager in Beijing? Italian French? Cos I met a guy, first he said he's married, then changed his words saying he's single and was just joking, he did tell me he had a HK gf.
I do hope he's not your finace. If he is, pls don't marry him! If not, I'm sorry to bother you.
(I am based in Beijing)
Posted by ayumi (96 days ago)
No, my bf lives in Hk and actually has never been to Beijing :-)
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by Oski (96 days ago)
Ayumi,
Don't rely on legal advise you get from an online forum before you can verify them from a lawyer familiar with HK marriage law.
Regardless of whether or not pre-nups are enforceable, there must be ways to protect pre-marital assets in a marriage. There are numerous tycoons and children of tycoons in HK who have divorced many times, and you don't see their ex-spouse walking away with half the family business. Find out from a HK lawyer how marital assets are calculated in a divorce, and explore other ways to protect yourself before calling off your wedding.
For some of the others, I remember Morgan Freeman deliver a line in an old movie. (the title escapes me), "You shouldn't judge a man before you walked a mile in his shoes."
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by selda (95 days ago)
i think that marriage is an obsolete institution.
Especially for someone like you, financially secure and independent. You are both mid-40, so i assume you are not starting a family either.
Living together with your bf is probably a better option than getting married.
If your marriage doesn't work out (and statistics suggest that it is not uncommon fate), from the sound of it, you have a lot more to lose than your husband.
Enjoy your relationship as it is, move in together if you must, but get some legal advice if you still want to go ahead with your wedding plans.
For centuries marriages were based on purely economic considerations, or to forge political alliances in the case of the aristocracy. Only in some countries, and only very recently romantic love has become the basis for marriage. It's a very shaky one, as we all know that romantic love doesn't last a lifetime!
(I am based in Unspecified)
Posted by Xshoequeen (95 days ago)
Hi Ayumi, just to supplement Selda, please be careful of the "union libre" system that France has. I myself cannot inform you of how it binds you or if it will bind a non-French citizen as I chose marriage.
Anyway, I think once you enter an international marriage being or not being in the citizenship country, there are so many legal concerns you need to figure out together. If you cannot discuss freely your concerns with your (ex?)bf, I think you will have problems. Why not tackle this problem together, and in any case, at the end of the day, you can't just go " Hi sweetie, I want a divorce, by the way, I drew up a prenup without telling you and here it is!!"
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by MJ1 (95 days ago)
Obviously financial security is very important to you and is something that your other half cannot offer. Just enjoy a de facto relationship. It seems to be the most suitable arrangement for you and very common these days.
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by Bart and Lisa (94 days ago)
I can't give you advice on pre-nups because my husband and I married with equal assets - nothing. He's catholic and doesn't believe in divorce.
Before we married, we attended two separate Marriage Counsel sessions. One by Caritas and the other organised by my own church. Both helped!
That's why I'm suggesting you attend a Marriage Course before you actually tie the know. The one I have in mind is run by the same people who do the Alpha course (not sure if you've heard of it) from Holy Trinity Brompton, UK.
You won't regret attending the course, and I'm quite positive you'd both enjoy it.
Congrats!
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by elysium168 (94 days ago)
In my country what is yours before marriage stays yours in case of divorce.
why then don't you get married in your own country, and therefore be subject to the country law that you feel secure? you don't need to get married under HK law.
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by aventino (94 days ago)
Elysium, where you get married is irrelevant to where the divorce happens to take place. It is all dependant upon where the court determines your domicile is, this may not necessarily be where you were born or lived or worked. It is also irrelevant who files first and why. The whole idea that where you marry is where you divorce is an old wives tale. The split of assets is dependant upon the length of the marriage, there are no hard and fast rules in HKG. Obviously the shorter the marriage, the more likely you are to "recover" a large portion of your assets. There are also big changes in the wings for future marriage and custody cases as HKG law leans away from the UK and more towards it's own style which is a OZ UK mix. There is a draft out that any lawyer can get you to have a read of. I would say that De facto relationships are heading the way of Australasian law at some time in the not too distant future.
This is a pretty depressing thread, if you don't believe in love, have no desire to grow old with someone then don't marry. it's that simple.
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by byechicago (93 days ago)
I love it! Reality check - You will die old and alone.
Marriage is expensive because of the upside potential. Why do some women with assets turn into their own worst enemy or an exaggeration of their perceived male sterotype? Ladies stop the hypocrisy. I expect to cut a huge check if my wife leaves me. Protecting prior assets is one thing but basing this as your litmus test of marriage is a self-fullfilling prophecy.
There is a good chance that you would be offended if I wanted to keep you away from my property and other assets.
So Ayumi/Oprah/Trump go ahead and protect your two flats and see if they keep you warm at night.
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by ayumi (93 days ago)
Aventino, Byechicago,
unfortunately there is no guarantee that a husband would grow old with you or keep you warm at night. A partner you live with might also spend his/her entire life with you, even if no marriage was ever celebrated.
I have a lot of aunties who are growing old alone because either their husbands died, or left them. But if i marry someone now and he divorces me after 20 years, i might end up not only alone, but also skint.
My boyfriend and i will try living together. I told him i am not ready to get married. Nothing to lose, i guess, in enjoying each other's company for a few years before the big decision.
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by byechicago (93 days ago)
I gain no satisfaction pointing out your issues, but you have approached the public for advise, so there is no need to stroke your ego.
Did you tell your fiance why you cancelled the wedding? How did he handle the news that you find him untrusting, under-funded, and a means to an end? Now look in the mirror and decide if you are willing to hear the same. You are missing a key point here. You are unwilling to separate with anything. No jurisdiction will take all your assets from you. If after 20 years, your subconscious termination date, you expect no recourse or settlement? He might out-earn you exponentially. Will you ask for nothing? Time will tell.
I have a friend juggly the exact same issue. He, shockingly, is self-centered and angry.
There is an adage, "You get what you ask for." I feel this is more fitting to you than your adage "nothing to lose."
Goodluck with all that.
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by ayumi (93 days ago)
You are putting words in my mouth that i never said, never thought. My boyfriend is not "untrusting, under-funded, a mean to an end". What end are you talking about?
I simply feel more comfortable with the prospect of living with him rather than marrying him, because in this way we live thorny financial matters out of the picture. Which i think is a better recipe for success. He loves me, i love him, our cohabitation will be based solely on our feelings for each other, without any future financial obligation in case of divorce.
We will share the rent, expenses, and will open a joint bank account to this purpose.
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by byechicago (92 days ago)
I will be retiring my short-lived blogging career, because you scare me and the typhoon will be over so back to work. As regarding words in your mouth, I think we all read between the lines. Let's take a trip down memory lane, shall we.
"A friend of mine (not a lawyer) scared the hell out of me by saying that in case we divorce, he will get half of my property and can even demand financial support." (Equality goes both ways. You can't earn respect without giving it.)
"I have started to worry, because i own a flat in HK and one in Europe, while my fiance has no properties. Also, i earn more than he does." (Pointing out that you earn more is seeking attention and showing disrespect because it is irrelevant if this relationship is true.)
'I certainly wouldn't want him to take me to the cleaners in case of divorce."
"certainly it wouldn't be fair if half of my properties went to him in case of divorce." (If this belief was mainstream very few men would pop the question.)
"Nothing to lose, i guess, in enjoying each other's company for a few years before the big decision." (True but don't cry when he moves on. You had your chance.)
"When my bf popped the question i immediately said yes, because i love him. Certainly i didn't think about divorce." (How long, about 10 minutes?)
"If i knew, probably i wouldn't have said yes, because i am a realist, i don't live in a fairytale." (Why do single people think married people live in a fairy tale. As if they are more enlightened, yet the fact is they are single because no one wants to commit to them or vice-versa.)
You are a realist alright and there is no fairytale in your future. He asked you and you are rejecting the proposal on your terms. Of course you don't feel the sting of rejection. It empowers you. He needs to get a pair. You have questioned his motives in the present and future. You seek marital advice from a blog which shows lack of trust and understanding. You have yourself a get out of jail, leave at the first sign of trouble card. All relationships and co-habitations have problems. Leaving the door open for retreat is the "means to an end."
You should consult your family who will stroke your ego or a therapist who you pay to stroke your ego.
Goodluck.
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by flashback (92 days ago)
Interesting thread.
I would say it would be quite natural for a woman in her 40s who has some property to be concerned about marrying a man in his 40s who apparently has no assets and is not her financial equal.
I am not saying that a person ought not to marry the one they love in such circumstances, but having lived in this world for long enough to see a lot of scenarios played out, I can understand ayumi's concerns.
It seems to me that deep down you may be yourself concerned about your b/f's motives in proposing. And then there is another question. How is it that a person gets to forty with no assets? I'm presuming from what you've written that no properties implies no assets at all (though I could be wrong and he may have savings, stocks etc.) But if this person has been single, what has he done for the past x number of years to secure his own future?
This would be the more worrying element from my point of view. Not that I might risk losing what I had, but I would be concerned about marrying a person with no vision as to his future, and who hadn't prepared something to ensure that. I would find that attitude more of concern., just as I am sure men would look at a woman who got to forty without putting anything behind them rather strange.
Perhaps your b/f has been married before and lost the house to his wife etc.. or suffered some uncontrollable misfortune. That would present another slant to the picture, and would reflect better on him.
Ayumi is right to think about these things. Just because one is in love, doesn't mean one has to be stupid.
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by ayumi (92 days ago)
Flashback, thanks!
You are a woman and understand my concerns. I am not talking about my circumstances to boast, but just to give a clearer picture to the readers of my post.
I am not a tycoon, just a professional woman who has worked hard all her life and saved money to buy two small flats, instead of squandering.
My bf has never been married before, and his the same age as me, mid-40, but has travelled a lot and never settled down anywhere. I don't know why he never saved money, or bought a flat, maybe that's the way some people are. I don't judge him, i just want to ensure that my future is not jeopardised by a financial haemorrage in case of divorce. Of course, nobody wishes for divorce here, no more than you wish for cancer when you have a check-up: marriage is a legal contract that one party can break, and because i see divorce happen around me, i am not talking about the most unlikely scenario, but something that is common in our society in the 21st century, one cannot pretend that divorce doesn't exist, just protect herself.
To me love means that i would help my partner financially and emotionally in case of an illness, loss of job etc, but not in case he is kicking back in Thailand with a beer in his hand, and a Thai girl next to him.
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by beancurd (92 days ago)
Hello Ayumi,
If I were you, why not just live together set up. You can share what you have to your partner without worries if the relationship turns into sour. It is only natural to protect yourself because marriage is really a very risky business. Unless, the other purpose is bring your partner as your dependant in Hong Kong.
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by ayumi (92 days ago)
beancurd, luckily we don't need a dependant visa. I am a permanent resident, and my bf has a work visa. We are going to live together, already looking for flat to rent.
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by matches (73 days ago)
Marry him only when you want to be sure you want to leave everything to him, or you decide to have kids. Otherwise go through a celebration but don't need to make it official right?
(I am based in Hong Kong)
Posted by hualaan (68 days ago)
I don't think you're ready to marry, not just this guy, but anybody. After six years of marriage, and seven years before that getting to know the woman who would become my wife, I have become convinced that the success or failure of a marriage is not a matter of random chance.
If you have a partnership based on love, you are in trouble. If you have love based on a partnership, you will likely succeed.
Each partner brings something to the relationship. You, apparently, can only bring a couple pieces of property; he brings a wealth of experience from living and travelling in the world. Presumably, that has made him into a person that you were considering spending the rest of your life with, so don't discount it so easily.
By the way, what are the rules in HK about common law partnerships? Here in Canada (and most western countries, I believe), once you have lived together for a period of time (three years, I think), the courts treat your relationship as if it were a marriage. If you split up after that, the normal rules of divorce apply.
(I am based in Bangkok)
Posted by Zorglub (65 days ago)
Haven't read the whole thread, but have you even discussed a prenup with him?
in France, in case no prenuptial agreement is signed before marriage, then you are automitically married under the "shared-property" law. That means that everything the couple has bought AFTER the wedding is owned in common by the couple, and should be split 50-50 in case of divorce.
Taking that into account, your fiance may very well not have thought about your concerns because he didn't realise that under other laws, he could be a threat to you! TALK TO HIM!!
I think this concern of yours is quite natural, whether man or woman, you don't want people to marry you for your money. Having said thatI would be offended if my fiance asked me to sign a prenup, I'd consider it as a sign that he doesn't trust me!
You do have something to loose, though: don't let your chance to happiness slip through your fingers because you are too careful.
For a good laugh on this subject, watch "Intolerable Cruelty", you'll see how a prenup can become something very romantic, after all... : )
(I am based in Hong Kong)
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